SEAN: The situation is compounded by him not being able to talk about certain things.
ANNE: Like the day...
...Yeah. Like there are big blank spots in what he can tell me. I don't know if he can tell me, and doesn't want to tell me, I don't know, it's sort of
Well what do you want me to fill in?
Okay, what happened on that night?
Oh, well, see, that's the thing, Sean. It's like, okaywe were both trying to break it off with each other, 'cause after he told medo you know why I cut my hair? And everythingbecause that was about two weeks before our anniversary, he told me, it was really weird, 'cause I told him, I started to say, okay, if you want to sleep with other women, then, um we're just not going to be together anymore. And I was like, it's fine if we break up, but you know, I'm going to have some shit to say about you. And I'm not like Debbie, and Debbie, I mean, she did put up with a lot of his shit, and in my opinion he's fucked her over way more than she's ever done anything to him. And she's been totally loyal to him. And anyway, I was just like, well, I'm going to say some shit about you. Because I think that you should have come straight out in ANSWER Me! and said that you hit Debbie about ten times.
This was two weeks before?
Yeah. And we fought all the time, as you know. And I was just like, that two weeks before, when I had tried to kill myself, I just was like, okay, fine, we are going to break up, but I'm going to say some shit about you. So I went onto the Internet, and I told Azmacourt that I would do an interview with him. You know, and talk about my relationship with Jim. And Jim found that out, and he went in andand he had saved all my emails that I ever emailed him. And he went in and he, um, he sent Azmacourt all my emails, and he wentand this was after he got the restraining order, toohe went and heand then I e-mailed Jim, and I wasn't supposed to be in contact with him, and I said, I went on and
Okay, wait, so this was after he took the restraining order out?
Yeah! Because I talked to him all the time after he took the restraining order out. Neither of us took to that fucking restraining order, every day. Anyway, I emailed him, I'm like it's fine that we broke up, [EDITOR'S NOTE: no such e-mail was found, but check her phone messages from 5/98 to see exactly how "fine" she was with the breakup] you know, or we're breaking up, or whatever, but I emailed Azmacourt and I told him I was going to do an interview with him. And then he got pissed off about that and he sent Azmacourt all these love letters that I'd sent him, and he's like, isn't she pathetic, dadadadada. And then he also went to the police and said and showed them all these emails, brought them these emails in person, and said, lookit, she's being in contact with me, and she's violating the restraining order, she's not supposed to do this. Okay, and after he did that, like about four hours after he did that, he came to my apartment and he said, "You'd better come with me right now." And I'm like, "Why?" You know, "We broke up, dadadadada...I had my phone turned back on so I could do the interview," And he said, "You better come with me because I just told the police where you were, and, er, where you are, and I gave them the e-mails, told them you're violating the restraining order, and you better come with me now if you don't want to get arrested." And this is what night? This is like two weeks before, this is before we went to Eugene together, this is, um
See, I didn't even know you guys went-I didn't even know
Oh, that's on videotape, so if he wants to try to say that we weren't together after the restraining order
No, I hadn't heard anything, one way or another.
Okay. So anyway, so we went in the car, we drove up to the hills, were we always go, we parked, he goes, he told me that he emailed Azmacourt all my love letters and stuff, and told him that I was pathetic, and dadada, and, um, then I'm like, well, why are you here now? And he says, well, because I guess I still care about you. And I don't want you to get caught by the police. So, then, so I went home with him that night, and fucked, whatever, we got back together, then, um, he called up the next day, he called up the
This is still like two weeks before?
Yeah, this still two weeks before that incident that happened. Before our anniversary. He called up the police and told them, he goes, "Oh, about Anne violating the restraining order, I've talked to somebody in her family and she's calmed down now, and she's going to leave me alone." So he just said that. And he was sneaking me back into the house and everything. Cause he told Russ not to let me in, and then he like, he was still sneaking me back into the house and stuff. And so, um, the police didn't come get me because he told them not to, and thenyeah! He was playing a game with me with the restraining order and stuff. Then what happened was that weekend after the Azmacourt thing, on Saturday morning, on Friday night, he was like, we're laying in bed and he's like, "Let's fuck" or something like that, and I was just like, no, because I know you want to fuck other women. [EDITOR'S NOTE: Jim Goad claims that he NEVER was the one to initiate sex with Anne. His version of events is that, after he saved her from the police, they went to his apartment, had sex, and fell asleep. Anne woke him up at 4:00 am by saying "I don't love you," and this led to Jim claiming he was in contact with other women.] And he finally came outand this is why I'd been so possessive of himcause I'd been suspicious of him the whole time, that he was fucking around behind my back. Giving him blowjobs everyday, you know, I was basically treated like a whore by him. ... And one thing I asked is that he not fuck around behind my back. And I found out that he called my stripper friend, my friend Devon, he called her when she called looking for me, he called her back up, was going to bars, trying to get laid, all this pathetic shit, I was very upset, I was so devastated I went to the bathroom, I cut off all my hair, I said, "Jim, I can't believe this bullshit." You know, 'cause I'm always there whenever he needs me, even though we fought all the time, whenever he needed me, which was a lot, I was there for him, I gave him everything, I cut off all my hair, I said, Jim, I'm so upset right now, and I was crying, and, um, and then that's when he started being real nice to me again. And he dropped me off at my house, said, "I want to be alone," and I was trying to kill myself and stuff, and I like put a plastic bag over my head, I didn't eat for two days, and Jim was like, "Well, just let me be your friend! I still love you! Please, you know, I'll cut off my dick! I still love you! We gotta be together!" And so he starts being really nice to me, and he asked me-and I didn't kill myself, you know-and I don't know, he just started being really nice to me after that, 'cause I said I was going to kill myself. And he said he wouldn't fool around on me and stuff. And we kinda got back together, and we went to the hot tubs and everything, we went to Eugene together, and I saw the dog every day, and then, I don't know. Before whatever it was, May 29th.
May 28th, whichever. Well, that was when I pounded down on him in thewell, no, May 29th was when he tried to kill me, but May 28th we got in a fight on the bus.
And what happened with that?
Well, what happened with that is that I saw him and how he was treating that dog. And it really kind of pissed me off. Basically, he was really shitty to me, or he was. Well, I saw that he was, so he went out of his way, he wouldn't even leave the dog at home by itself and stuff. Okay, on the day after our anniversary, on the Wednesday, he got in a car wreck. So I was going around, all around Portland with him, you know, getting his car insurance, going with him to the hospital, getting everything together, and whatnot, and I said, well, would you come with me to Beaverton to do my shit. And he was like, yeah, but he was kind of like, just a dick about it, and I was just, like, so pissed off at him, and so I went to the back of the bus, and then I sat at the front, and then I sat right next to him, and we had been fighting all the time, anyways, because we were trying to break off from each other, and we couldn't do it. We were just, you know, addicted to each other. And at the same time we fought all the time. It was really hard. So anyways, I sat down next to him, on the bus, and he was just a real smartass, and he said something like, "You're not the one, you were never the one, that's right, I want to see other women, blahblahblah, so I just started hitting him, as hard as I could, but which wasn't really hard, you know, cause I hit like a girl.
You know. And everybody on the bus was laughing, and he was laughing at me, and um...
Did he hit you? Or what?
Uh-uh, not on the bus! Cause he wouldn't hit me in front of anybody.
And plus I knew that was the only time. The only other time I pounded on him was in front of Russ [Jim's former landlord]. Because, like, in public, you know, that was the only time I could do it cause then he wouldn't hit me back. [EDITOR'S NOTE: The word "back" is very important here, since it implies that Jim would hit her back in private-after she hit him first.] But otherwise he would have pounded on me. And it's a lie when he says he never hit me before because I did ask him to hit me for financial aid, but he did hit me a lot of other times before that. And he was the first one to do it. [Sean sighs] And he's lying if he says that that's bullshit.
Which? When he says what's bullshit?
That he never hit me except for one time when I asked him to.
No, he hasn't, we haven't discussed, like, he obviously wouldn't want to talk about what... he just doesn't go into details, you know?
Yeah, because when you said when Jim gets angry he writes, that's not true. When Jim gets angry he hits. And he yells. And he kicks things. And he smashes things. And he smashes his car. And you know, but when I get angry I do the same thing, you know? But what he did that day I was scared for my fucking life.
So what happened that night, then?
Oh! It was really weird. So then...Okay, from the start of that night, because that's... Well that's Wednesday night! Okay, after the fight, after I got off the bus, then I started just walking away from the bus, he wasn't injured or anything, 'cause I was just doing my little girly hits, erbut I did bite him really hard on the arm, 'cause that's the one way I couldwell, he's bit me a bunch of times, too, but that's the one way that I could really just only hurt him...like, my punches don't really hurt him, and plus he has a really hard head.
So you were really trying to hurt him?
Yeah. [in simple, matter-of-fact tone of voice] Oh, yeah.
So? He's tried to hurt me a bunch of times, too.
I know, but I'm saying when it comes down to you guys fighting, you gave as good as you got, you know?
Sure! We both did. Except I never tried to kill him. On that day he tried to kill me. That was the only thing. I told you that I didn't care, I don't care if they drop all the assault charges. Because that's not the issue.
What is the issue?
Well, the issue is that he tried to kill me that day, that he locked me in the car and drove up there, pounding on me, with the intention of killing me. Literally. Not beating me upkilling me.
Okay, wait, anyway, start at the beginning, because this is what I want to hear. How the hell did it get to that point?
I don't knowhe snapped, he turned into a madman...
[Later during conversation, on same side of tape]
And so, then he wakes up at five in the morning, he wakes me upwhich he has done a ton of fucking times, after his restraining order, before his restraining order, whenever he had me over to his fucking houseand this is why I hit him on the busbecause it all added up, he woke me up at five in the morning, he says "Get out of here." He gets in a bad mood, you know, treats me like total shit. SoI'm like, "No, Jim, I have to work today, I'm not getting out of bed." And this is when he says that I won't leave the house. Okay, so not leaving the house at an irrational hour, you know, five in the morning. So, I said I'm not getting up. He says, "Get the fuck out of bed."
How many times did he ask? Did this go on and on, or what?
This is what happened all the time.
I mean, when it was going on, did it take minutes, or what? Or was it like, did he say it once, did he say it a million times, or what?
Telling you to leave. I mean, did he say it briefly, and that was it, or did he repeat it, or what?
Mmm...are you talking about that morning, or all the times?
That morning, when he woke you up.
No, he was really, really, really pissed. So he didn't need to repeat it. So I was like, "Okay." And that was just cause I was tired anyway, and I had to work. And I didn't feel like fighting it out that morning or whatever. But other times I fought it out, fuck yeah. I mean, after we had sex and everything, two hours later he wants me to get out of bed, that, that's irrational. That's the time I go, "No"
Okay, wait, I'm confused. Did he, he told you to go
You said no. And then did he just abandon it? That morning?
No. No, no, no, no, no. He's like, "Get the fuck out of bed," he, like, puts his pants on, and boots on and whatever, and I'm likecause I was kind of sleepy, I'm like, "Jim, what the fuck, I told you I would go on, you know that I would say I was somebody else [on the Internet] you know, say that I was somebody else posing as Anne R., and fix it, basically. And he's like, "No, you've gone too far." I don't know why it pissed him off so much. But I really pissed him off. So he's like, "Get in the car." Soyou know, I get my shit together, I get in the car, it's like five in the morning, now, nobody's out. The whole way over I didn't say a fucking word, he's bitchin' at me the whole time.
How long did that take?
To get over to my apartment? Like ten minutes. You know. And as we pull up in front of my building, I finally look at him, I go, "Okay, Jim, you know what? You're right, this is it. But you know what? It's not going to be like it was, I'm not going to be all subservient to you, [EDITOR'S NOTE: It's fascinating how well Anne plays into stereotypes of male-female relationships here. Perhaps Jim already had the idea she wasn't "subservient" after months of her attacks and threats.] I'm not going to shut up, I have a lot more to say about you, I have a lot more quotes [?]. I looked him right in the eye when I said that. And I go, "You know I'm not going to shut up about this. And I'm going to out you, and I'm going to say all I have to say about you, and I think I said something along those lines, and that's when he's like, "No, you're not, bitch." And that's when he fuckin' locks the car door, turns into a maniac, gets out of my building with me in the car, and me trying to open up the car door, and trying to honk the horn, with him screaming like a maniac, laughing and punching me as hard as he can in the face about twenty times. And I did not even hit him at all. There's no way that I could, and me begging for my life, get out of that vehicle.
Okay, so I've seen the police report, I mean, there are photos where his face is fucked up.
He did that to himself. I know that he did.
You didn't hit him?
No! I did not hit him. He did not have nothe day before, I hit him. But that was on the shoulder. And on the back of the head. I saw those little scratch marks from the Willamette Week picture, and I know that that was allthat was something like Diane Downs did, shoot herself in the arm. I know that was totally to get himI can't even believe he would stoop so low.
There's a witness that said that there was blood caked in the inside of his nose.
Oh my God! Who was that?
I honestly don't know who the witness was.
From that day?
From that night. From you hitting him in the face.
When would I have hit him in the face? There was no way that I could get out of the car!
In the car, before he drove away.
No, there was no way I could! I didn't hit him at all that day. There was no fucking way I could have. [EDITOR'S NOTE: She never explains why there was "no way" she could have hit Jim while they were parked outside her building. In fact, it was physically much easier for her to hit him while he was driving than the inverse.]
Okay. This is
And if you're trying to get away from somebody who's psycho, why didn't he just let me out of the car?
Well, no, I think that ... I don't know, what the hell.
I was trying to get out of that car.
I was trying my damndest, and he drove up the hill with the intention that that was a kidnapping.
There are photos from that night that show scratches on his face.
How could there be photos that night?
No, because it happened in the morning.
I'm thinking of nighttime as darkness time.
No, it was light. It was light out.
There are photos taken right after what happened.
Yeah, there's also no blood in the car, it bled all over my clothes. He totally rigged that. He cleaned up all the blood out of his car, he had two days to do all that! There's no wayI saw those marks on his face and I know for a fact that he did that to himself. He knew what he did was wrong!
So he pulled away from your house
With me in the car, locked the doors, cause it was automatic locks, in this brand-new rental car.
I've heard that you wouldn't get out of the car.
[laughs] I was trying to get out of the car from the start!
No, but I mean before the car moved away, that it was a matter of you not getting out. Is that not true?
No. That's not true.
This whole thing's crazy. Alright.
And if he says that that's true, why didn't he let me out, then? Why did he drive with somebody up to the hills?
that you're trying to get away from. Self-defense. Let's talk about that day. Nothing he can say, I mean, he's so guilty, nothing he can say
I really want to ask him about this stuff ... this is the stuff I want to ask him about. It's not the thing he's supposed to talk about, so ...
Yeah. And he violated the restraining order, too.
What, the one that he took out on you?
[unintelligible] get it on videotape. That's not the way those restraining orders work
Yes, it is. You can't contact him.
Yes it is, because in the restraining order he's trying to say that he's trying to get away from me. He wasn't trying to get away from me. He was not in fear of me or in danger of me when he's taking me home and putting me in his bed every night.
It's legal for him to contact you with that restraining order.
So what, then he just has it like Monica Lewinsky with her dress? Evidence against me? So he could do something to me like this?
I don't know...
[later in conversation, talking about earlier discussions of her dropping the charges against him]
Why would I want to do that to somebody who has never had anywhen I realized that everything he that said to me wasn't true, he caused me nothing but heartache and grief ... What good did he do for me for a whole year?
Well, okay, if someone causing another person heartache and grief can be held against them, you're both guilty.
What did I do to him that was the equivalent?
Well, you're saying you attacked him. You're saying you were trying to do as much damage as you could.
No, I don't think I was trying to kill him he was with me that night. I mean, I spoke words to him, but I never actually did anything.
Yeah well, see, you're saying
Well, he spoke lots of words to me, on the phone. Words are way different than actual actions. And I never did get to beat him up as bad as he beat me up. That's not fair! I wanted to, fuck yeah! I wanted to cause him as much pain as he caused me.
Well, and you certainly tried!
Well, yeah! So did he!
So, I mean, it's a matter of
He would! If I'd beat him up so bad that day, and put him in, and locked him in my car, and pounded on his face, like he did me, fuck, yeah he'd want me in prison, Sean.
I don't think so. I think ... I mean, I don't know anymore ...
He wanted me dead that day! I believe it! I know that he did! He wasn't just being figurative when he said, oh, I'm going to fucking kill you, I'm going to fucking kill you, you've gone too far.
So how did it end? Okay, that drive, when you guys were driving, how did you get out of the car?
He finallyI guess he came to his senses when we were up there. But, okay, 'cause it started out with I was trying to get out of the car. And I didn't touch him. I didn't have the time or opportunity to touch him. [EDITOR'S NOTE: See PANIK interview for details of how she systematically omits the part about the black interloper trying to break up a fistfight she started at the beginning of this incident.] It started out when I was just being pounded on with his fists. Coming at me, while he was steerin', and he skids out, and he's skidding all over the road cause I was trying to open the door and I was trying to honk the horn, and I was screaming help, and um, then when he was driving up the hill, we're winding up the hill, and the way that he was talking and laughing and he's pounding on my face, and I was saying, "Yeah, you're right, I am a bitch," and there's blood pouring from everywhere and my eye was completely swollen shut, and I was saying, "I love you, beat me up, hit me again," because I wanted him to not fucking kill me once we got up there and not throw me off the cliff or beat me to death.
You were saying what?
I was saying, "Jim, you're right," I go, "I'm a bitch, everything you say about me is true, but please, please, please just don't kill me, don't kill me, don't kill me." That's what I was saying. But he wanted to kill me. Yeah, I was trying to like, uh, get on his ... I was like, "I know you have a heart of gold..." I was trying to beg for my life, basically. Because I didn't want him to kill me once we got up there. That's what he said he was going to do. He was like, "You've gone too far." I was so scared!
So you didn't attack him at all?
No! [laughs] I didn't have a chance! It was different, it was unlike any other time that we'd ever been at it. It was really, really frightening. And I didn't even feel the punches because like I said because I was just so concerned and fearful, afraid for my life.
Okay. I definitely have to ask him about this. I don't know what kind of answer I'll get. So anyway, sorry, okay, he let you out at the top?
Yeah. Well, finally, at some point, like five or ten minutes after he startedand it was like repeated, I mean really hard, as hard as he could in my face. It wasn't like the other fights that we had been in. It wasn't like getting decked, or one or two times, it wasn't like screaming there, "I'm mad at you" It was, "I am going with the intent to kill. I am going to kill you." And I fucking believed it. I fucking saw something change over in him, and I knew he would have killed me. I can't believe I'm alive.